Not sure I'm impressed

6200 Views 20 Replies 15 Participants Last post by darkride, Apr 24, 2011

forrest

Discussion Starter · Apr 21, 2011

So I am sure that all of you guys know about the NY auto show that is going on right now. I've been trying to keep in the loop about whats going on and saw several cars that were revealed at the show.

One of the two cars that I thought were interesting was the intro of the 2012 Mazda 3. The new mazda 3 is supposed to be paired with SkyActiv-G engine and transmission. This combo delivers 155 horsepower and 148 lb-ft. of torque from a 2.0 liter DI engine. The car is also expected to get 28 mpg in the city and 40 mpg on the hwy.

The other car that I thought was interesting was the 2013 Chevy Malibu ECO. The car has a 2.4L DI I4 with an eAssist mild hybrid system that delivers 26 mpg in the city and 38 mpg on the hwy for the mid-sized Malibu. With the engine producing 180 hp and the mild electric motor adding another 15 hp, the combined 195 hp should give the car some pretty good performance right?

With all of these very high FE cars coming out, it just seems that the numbers for the ct200h are a bit subpar. I do admit though, I love the design of the car and the interior looks very neat (haven't actually test driven it yet), but the 0-60 times of almost 10 seconds while at the same time delivering on 40 mpg on the hwy seems kinda outdated by comparison.

Does anyone think the same thing? What would we expect if Lexus combined the engine from the new mazda 3 with their hybrid system? Would we get much better performance and higher FE?

EDIT: FIY, I am not really a car guy and all the above numbers I got from a third party site that is publishing articles about the event.

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

darkride

· #2 · Apr 21, 2011

I agree that 40 MPG hwy isn't all that impressive compared to other vehicles, but 43 MPG for the CT city kicks the crap out of those other vehicles. I realize the CT probably isn't for everyone.

It will all come down to choice. The power isn't that great, but you get the reliability, design of exterior and interior, comfort, fuel savings, and top ranked service with Lexus.

You can weigh those against the extra 21+ HP for Mazda 3 or 61+ for MalibuEco (and I'm sorry but did you say 2013

, if your waiting until then, one could dream of future CT300h/400h models) Those are my $0.02.

Kostamojen

· #3 · Apr 21, 2011

Unless you spend all day driving around on freeways without changing speeds, you won't be able to reproduce the 40mpg numbers for the other vehicles.

But the CT, just driving around down or doing whatever even some freeway driving pretty much ALWAYS gets over 40mpg.

And so far I've noticed that if you have the cruise control set on the highway just going along at the same speed... it does MORE than 40mpg on long trips.

At any rate, its a proven high-mileage drivetrain from the Prius with VERY low maintenance, so its hard to beat IMO and no other maker (other than the chevy volt) has been able to replicate the feat so far.

cenix

· #4 · Apr 21, 2011

ct200h performance numbers are not impressive by any means, and they are using a technology that is over 10 years old, so it's sure to show in comparison with the newer generation of hybrids that are in line for production or slated for production. in my opinion, the ct200h seems more like a bridge for lexus to get into a market niche that has been overlooked (for the u.s. at least) and so far they seem to be on the right track considering the high demand for it (gas prices helping with demand i'm sure).

k3vo

· #5 · Apr 21, 2011

cenix said:
ct200h performance numbers are not impressive by any means, and they are using a technology that is over 10 years old, so it's sure to show in comparison with the newer generation of hybrids that are in line for production or slated for production. in my opinion, the ct200h seems more like a bridge for lexus to get into a market niche that has been overlooked (for the u.s. at least) and so far they seem to be on the right track considering the high demand for it (gas prices helping with demand i'm sure).

Your statement seems to suggest that no improvements have been made to the system in ten years. True, the technology was introduced 10 years ago, but it has been improved over several generations. cf. most automobiles on the road today use an internal combustion engine, the basic technology for which is over 100 years old.

I absolutely agree with your market analysis. I think the popularity this model will demonstrate will sprout several more performance-oriented engine configurations. Toyota Motor Corporation did apply for the trademarks CT200h, CT300h and CT400h in the Canadian Trade-Marks Office. While this could have been for the purposes of deception prior to the introduction of the final configuration ... we can hope.

Kristi

· #6 · Apr 21, 2011

Kostamojen said:
But the CT, just driving around down or doing whatever even some freeway driving pretty much ALWAYS gets over 40mpg.

Earlier this week I filled up and drove a few miles down some 35 mph streets to get where I was going, parked, and my current mpg was 68.9!!! Of course once I got on the highway it went down (still at 48 mpg on the same tank after 250 miles) but still!

As many have indicated previously, that's roughly 2 mpg off the real world calculations making it 46...

mariner22

· #7 · Apr 21, 2011

CT200h Rationale

I don't think many are buying a CT200h because of its superior economy (A Prius is better!) or performance (it is still a 134 hp hybrid!). I have one on order to replace my 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid because I love my IS250AWD and want much of the "experience" (styling, amenities, comfort) in my second car.

It is the Lexus of Priuses - some may think its pretty stupid paying $10,000 more and getting less gas mileage, but everyone is entitled to make their own informed decision.

jcpharm

· #8 · Apr 21, 2011

mariner22 said:
I don't think many are buying a CT200h because of its superior economy (A Prius is better!) or performance (it is still a 134 hp hybrid!). I have one on order to replace my 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid because I love my IS250AWD and want much of the "experience" (styling, amenities, comfort) in my second car.

It is the Lexus of Priuses - some may think its pretty stupid paying $10,000 more and getting less gas mileage, but everyone is entitled to make their own informed decision.

actually i did buy it for its fuel economy but willing to compromise on the numbers vs. the Prius to get the better handling, styling, and interior.

Mr. Nelsby

· #9 · Apr 21, 2011

jcpharm said:
actually i did buy it for its fuel economy but willing to compromise on the numbers vs. the Prius to get the better handling, styling, and interior.

Exactly why I went with the ct200h over the Prius III. I was actually in the market for a Prius III and was just waiting a bit till things got less hectic at work before buying it. Luckily, I saw someone over on the Priuschat forums talking about the CT200h and when I looked into it, it seemed to address ALL of the issues i have with the Prius.

I my mind, I said to myself that if they could match the current MPG I get on my Prius II, I'd go for it. Low and behold, they did. While it is a bit of a sacrifice from the economy of the Prius III, the added features, quietness of the cabin, and comfort are really worth the difference and I can still drive to NY and back from Boston on one tank of gas.

Really it all comes down to what you are looking for. If you want raw power and care about 0-60, then this might not be the car for you, whereas if you want economy over everything else, again, maybe not the best fit.

That said, this is absolutely the best car on the market right now for what I want: comfort, gadgets, and economy on gas.

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Claude

· #10 · Apr 21, 2011

jcpharm said:
actually i did buy it for its fuel economy but willing to compromise on the numbers vs. the Prius to get the better handling, styling, and interior.

Same here.

jimmyc13

· #11 · Apr 21, 2011

Kristi said:
Earlier this week I filled up and drove a few miles down some 35 mph streets to get where I was going, parked, and my current mpg was 68.9!!! Of course once I got on the highway it went down (still at 48 mpg on the same tank after 250 miles) but still!

As many have indicated previously, that's roughly 2 mpg off the real world calculations making it 46...

Exactly why I opted for the CT and not some other high MPG highway car, that doesn't get city mileage like this. My current car MPG sticker ratings are 27 highway/18 city and I drive 75% highway and only get an average of 22 MPG

. If I baby the car & drive like grandma, the best I can get is 25 MPG. Going w/ the CT is the real deal!

Bob259

· #12 · Apr 21, 2011

I went from a Highlander Hybrid to the CT for that mileage increase right now about +18 mpg in town alone. Miss some of the room, but love the CT overall.

ERDocDave

· #13 · Apr 22, 2011

I couldn't agree more with a lot of these posts. This will be my first Lexus, hell, my first luxury car. I've driven Fords for quite some time since I am lucky enough to get a family discount, and the 2012 Focus is similar to what was talked about at first in this thread.

Its got great styling, 167 hp, and for a few thousand less than I'll be paying for my CT, I could have a Focus with Nav, Parking assist, Backup camera, premium sound, and most importantly, Sync. So why in the name of all things big and small am I switching? A short list of reasons,

Fit, finish, and Traffic

You see the Focus may get 27/38, but even at a dead stop it idles. This means it burns gas just to stand still. Recently I've had three DC traffic days where I was standing still on highways for prolonged periods watching the Tachometer burn dinosaurs without consideration.

Then there was just how well put together the car was in comparison to the highest level of Focus. If you can afford the choice, the choice was clear.

I'll have to change the subject when I'm around my family, but I'll sacrifice horsepower to save some gas and improve my ride. Lord knows I'm in my car enough that I better enjoy being there.

Though I will miss my Sync.

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Kostamojen

· #14 · Apr 22, 2011

The Lexus bluetooth vocal commands are kind of a baby-sync, so there is that

But ya, I agree with you about idling. I spend probably 20% of my driving sitting at stoplights, so something with stop-start technology makes huge sense to me too.

rehabmax

· #15 · Apr 23, 2011 (Edited)

After a month with my CT200h my gas mileage is steadily increasing. I am now averaging over 47mpg with mixed suburban driving, some hills. Speed is generally 45mph or slower on small roads. The car goes into EV mode on the downhills and I think this is gradually increasing my mileage.

I think the CT200h is very close to the Prius mileage wise. The cabin design and interior features are really superior on the CT200h. Probably not as nice as a German car BMW or Mercedes. The handling in turns is very good also. I personally like the look of the CT200h over the Prius. I have been getting many compliments on the car. People ask is it a race car? I don't know how many people come up to Prius owners and say how great looking the car is. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

This is my first Lexus after years of Honda products. I am very happy with the purchase. Cheaper cars are out there of course. Ford is pushing hard with the Focus.
if you spend an hour or more a day in your car you should enjoy getting where you are going.

CT200h Premium, Starfire Pearl, Navigation, Premium Sound, Black Nulux interior

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Kostamojen

· #16 · Apr 23, 2011

Wow, thats impressive mileage. I wouldn't be surprised if the mileage ends up exceeding EPA specs since as you mentioned, it is just a Prius drivetrain. You factor in small differences with weight, tires and cod, but there isn't much holding it back from getting near Prius numbers.

forrest

Discussion Starter · #17 · Apr 23, 2011

@darkside: Oh I agree about the reliability, exterior and interior comforts, top ranked service. However, I just don't think power and FE wise the CT is up to par to the other cars that I mentioned. The engine technology in the car just seems outdated to me. I don't mean the hybrid components, but more of the atkinson 1.8l engine. Like what would be the power and FE if say lexus dropped the engine from the 2012 mazda 3? Can we expect EPA of say 50 in the city and 45 on hwy but 0-60 times of 8 secs or less?

I am definitely not arguing the other points of the car. Hence why I am interested in it, but think I will wait for the ct300h/ct400h.

FIY...I don't care about power all that much. However, after having driven my civic hybrid the last 3 years. I can clearly say I want something faster than that POS.

@rehabmax: that are some impressive numbers. To boot, you should see even higher FE after the engine wears in, after about 5k miles (saw that on my civic and pretty much everyone reports the same thing on the prius forums). However, just because you are getting those numbers, doesn't mean everyone else with. I have a short commute, about 10 miles each way (80% hwy and 20% fast city). I am stuck at about 42. However, when I used to commute 20 miles, I would be at a constant 46.

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rehabmax

· #18 · Apr 24, 2011

Your observation about the power on th CT200h is legitimate. When I get on I-95 I have to say a prayer on merging with traffic doing 80-90 mph and giant 18 wheelers. I go immediately into Sport Mode to get extra push.
Timing for me was the maini factor in the purchase on the car. I needed a new vehicle and the CT200h fit my needs. What is down the line for the next few model years is anybody's guess. My theory is Lexus will continue to improve the hybrid components and battery. Maybe a partial plug in. I just don't see this car getting a rocket for an engine and trying to keep the fuel efficiency above 40mpg. In 5 years the technology will be better still.

giora

· #19 · Apr 24, 2011

Fuel Efficiency

forrest said:
...I don't mean the hybrid components, but more of the atkinson 1.8l engine. Like what would be the power and FE if say lexus dropped the engine from the 2012 mazda 3? Can we expect EPA of say 50 in the city and 45 on hwy but 0-60 times of 8 secs or less?...

No, we cannot expect.
The Atkinson cycle engine was chosen for fuel efficiency, it is far more efficient than the Otto cycle engine.
Sorry, you can't get them all.

Giora.

giora

· #20 · Apr 24, 2011

Acceleration

rehabmax said:
...I go immediately into Sport Mode to get extra push...

You don't need to...just floor the pedal.
At full throttle, the car will comply and give everything it has, even if you are in normal mode.

Giora.

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