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So I'm doing my taxes right now and was getting psyched to see how much $ I'd get back for buying my CT. Am I the only one that did not know that the IRS did away with this for any hybrids purchased after January 1, 2011!? :( I am so bummed! :mad:

Here's the link to where I just discovered this: Alternative Motor Vehicle Credit
 

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Yes, only total electric or plug in hybrids this year.
 

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I wish they would bring the credits back. Won't help me with the CT but I'd look into getting the ford focus electric or A3 etron next year. Only because we get an extra 5k credit in CA. $12,500 off yes please!
 

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If they are dumb enough to give it, I would be happy to take it, but why? I get the benefit of better mileage. The tax codes are far too complicated already. Do away with all that nonsense and flat tax it.
 

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So I'm doing my taxes right now and was getting psyched to see how much $ I'd get back for buying my CT. Am I the only one that did not know that the IRS did away with this for any hybrids purchased after January 1, 2011!? :( I am so bummed! :mad:

Here's the link to where I just discovered this: Alternative Motor Vehicle Credit
The other thing that bummed a lot of people here in Cal was that it removed all Hybrids from the one person driving in Express (carpool) Lane. Must be Zero Emission cars to qualify.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
The other thing that bummed a lot of people here in Cal was that it removed all Hybrids from the one person driving in Express (carpool) Lane. Must be Zero Emission cars to qualify.
Wow, no kidding. Well that's just dumb. It's really not a zero emissions car when you're using power from a power plant to charge up your car!
 

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Wow, no kidding. Well that's just dumb. It's really not a zero emissions car when you're using power from a power plant to charge up your car!
Actually one of my coworker is on order for the new Tesla, and he just installed solar panels on his house getting ready to charge his new car for free. He is getting all kinds of tax breaks for his Tesla and the solar panel.
 

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If they are dumb enough to give it, I would be happy to take it, but why? I get the benefit of better mileage. The tax codes are far too complicated already. Do away with all that nonsense and flat tax it.
There is nothing dumb at all about subsidizing clean energy, and hybrids are a stepping stone toward that goal. The oil industry gets billions (trillions?) in tax credits and subsidies already. If the US is to move into a future that isn't dependent on oil and gas, then it requires gently coercing people's behavior. That means taxes on gas and credits on alternatives.

This is all basic economic / energy policy. I also feel the tax code is far too complicated, but we live in complicated times.
 

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There is nothing dumb at all about subsidizing clean energy, and hybrids are a stepping stone toward that goal. The oil industry gets billions (trillions?) in tax credits and subsidies already. If the US is to move into a future that isn't dependent on oil and gas, then it requires gently coercing people's behavior. That means taxes on gas and credits on alternatives.

This is all basic economic / energy policy. I also feel the tax code is far too complicated, but we live in complicated times.
Wow, way to glom onto the talking points of the day. No, the oil industry does not get trillions in subsidies (or anywhere close to it).

They get the same tax breaks any other corporation gets. They're just using the tax code as intended to pay as little tax as possible.

If you want to take away their 'subsidies', you have to remove the tax breaks/loopholes that all corporations get.

Corporations in the US already pay the highest rates in the world, 35%.

I don't need to be 'gentle coerced' into anything, I bought this car and get 50mpg because it makes sense economically with how much driving I do on a daily basis for business.

Government is not the answer to our problems, government IS the problem.

Here's a good article on it: The Difference Between a Tax Break and a Subsidy - Reason Magazine
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Actually one of my coworker is on order for the new Tesla, and he just installed solar panels on his house getting ready to charge his new car for free. He is getting all kinds of tax breaks for his Tesla and the solar panel.
Sick, that's an awesome ride, great range too from what I recall. Unless his house is a mega mansion and he's got a ton of roof area, I highly doubt he is able to charge his car using only the solar panel energy. It's still a great idea though to add that to your home if you can afford it (it's cheaper to do these days given the production costs of panels being much lower).
 

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Sick, that's an awesome ride, great range too from what I recall. Unless his house is a mega mansion and he's got a ton of roof area, I highly doubt he is able to charge his car using only the solar panel energy. It's still a great idea though to add that to your home if you can afford it (it's cheaper to do these days given the production costs of panels being much lower).
The tax man seems to get it wrong in most countries of the world but they must attend special training in the most developed countries in order to attain the ineptitude levels required for the job. Isnt it a pity that engineers and scientists arent allowed to legistlate on issues which are clearly related to engineering and science?
 

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[The oil industry gets] the same tax breaks any other corporation gets. They're just using the tax code as intended to pay as little tax as possible.

If you want to take away their 'subsidies', you have to remove the tax breaks/loopholes that all corporations get.
You are sorely misinformed. The quote below is from: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/business/04bptax.html
But go ahead & do your own further research if you don't believe it -- this information is freely available.

An examination of the American tax code indicates that oil production is among the most heavily subsidized businesses, with tax breaks available at virtually every stage of the exploration and extraction process.

According to the most recent study by the Congressional Budget Office, released in 2005, capital investments like oil field leases and drilling equipment are taxed at an effective rate of 9 percent, significantly lower than the overall rate of 25 percent for businesses in general and lower than virtually any other industry.

And for many small and midsize oil companies, the tax on capital investments is so low that it is more than eliminated by various credits. These companies’ returns on those investments are often higher after taxes than before.

“The flow of revenues to oil companies is like the gusher at the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico: heavy and constant,” said Senator Robert Menendez, Democrat of New Jersey, who has worked alongside the Obama administration on a bill that would cut $20 billion in oil industry tax breaks over the next decade. “There is no reason for these corporations to shortchange the American taxpayer.”
I took advantage of a ~$3000 (?) tax credit when I purchased my Prius 8 years ago. It is disappointing that such a credit no longer exists, yet we continue to subsidize the oil industry to such a degree.
 

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You are sorely misinformed. The quote below is from: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/business/04bptax.html
But go ahead & do your own further research if you don't believe it -- this information is freely available.
I've already done the research, which is why I know those are just the liberal talking points of the day that you're repeating. Sad that you just believe anything they print without even trying to verify it.

Specifically:

"An examination of the American tax code indicates that oil production is among the most heavily subsidized businesses, with tax breaks available at virtually every stage of the exploration and extraction process."

Now, please *READ* what's there. 'WITH TAX BREAKS AVAILABLE'. This is no fault of the oil companies, and in no way is it a SUBSIDY, they're just legally taking advantage of the 'TAX BREAKS' in the tax code just like every other business tries to. Hey, quick question, do YOU deliberately ignore 'tax breaks' like the home mortgage deduction when doing your taxes? Didn't think so. Why should they? This would be completely irresponsible and a violation of their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. (Leave that to Solyndra, the folks that took the government money and ran).

"According to the most recent study by the Congressional Budget Office, released in 2005, capital investments like oil field leases and drilling equipment are taxed at an effective rate of 9 percent, significantly lower than the overall rate of 25 percent for businesses in general and lower than virtually any other industry."

Another lie, capital investments aren't taxed, they're written off. When I buy a vehicle for use in my business, it's amortized over the effective life of the vehicle. It's not 'taxed' at 9 percent (except for California sales tax), or an overall rate of 25 percent. The overall rate for Corporations is actually 35 percent, but most if not all 'capital investments' are 100% deductible over time. Please, at least do the absolute basic research about what you're parroting. I've owned a business for 28 years, and no, the government isn't giving me a 'subsidy' because I can deduct capital expenditures! This is complete and utter balderdash!

"And for many small and midsize oil companies, the tax on capital investments is so low that it is more than eliminated by various credits. These companies’ returns on those investments are often higher after taxes than before."

OMG! CALL THE POLICE! 'Their return on investment is often higher after taxes than before!" HOLY **** BATMAN! THEY'RE MAKING A PROFIT! KILLL THE EVIL OIL BARRONS!!! Seriously, the goal of a corporation is to make a profit for their shareholders. This isn't evil, it isn't even remotely illegal. It's called Capitalism, and it's something we try darn hard to practice in what's left of our 'free country'. You are literally falling for the liberal talking points of the day hook line and sinker like a drone.

“The flow of revenues to oil companies is like the gusher at the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico: heavy and constant,” said Senator Robert Menendez, Democrat of New Jersey, who has worked alongside the Obama administration on a bill that would cut $20 billion in oil industry tax breaks over the next decade. “There is no reason for these corporations to shortchange the American taxpayer.”

They're not 'shortchanging the American taxpayer', they are paying their legitimate full share of their taxes as is legal under the tax code that all corporations follow. Unlike corporations like GE, who deliberately skirt the tax code moving money and jobs offshore so that they LITERALLY pay no taxes year after year. If you want to scream bloody murder, try looking into GE, not the oil companies.

If you'll do the research, you'll find oil companies operate at less than an EIGHT PERCENT profit margin. That's incredibly low, it's just their volume is very very high due to all the gas guzzlers out there. If you want to level some hate at greedy corporations, put Apple in your sights as a main target. They regularly run a profit margin of about FORTY PERCENT! Five times what the oil companies make! Apple far surpassed Exxon Mobil now as the largest corporation in the world. Apple is sitting on *ONE HUNDRED BILLION* in cash, and not even paying a dividend to their shareholders (they have finally announced a small one, after 17 years).

So please, instead of just parroting bogus misinformation, do even the most basic checking into that which you're repeating. Without these 'greedy' oil companies with their '7.9%' profit margins, we'd have no bloody gas for our CT200h's. Personally I'm thankful them for supplying a product I desperately need at the lowest cost possible while running extremely fair profit margins.
 

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@Dozer42... You seem very passionate. But do you know what we're even talking about? @Joe166 had said if the government was "dumb enough to give [tax credits for hybrid cars]" that he would take advantage of them. I responded by saying that there are valid reasons for the gov to give such credits (as they have in the past), and that the oil industry already receives significant credits. These are facts. You may disagree with the cost/benefit ratios for either of them, and that's something our legislation argues about constantly.

I don't understand your rantings though. First you're accusing me of parroting liberal talking points. I happen to agree with Obama on this point of tax credits & clean energy. That doesn't make either of us wrong, shallow, or ignorant. I disagree with "the liberals" plenty on many points, but this is one we agree on that I actually figured out on my own a long time ago -- for reasons far more complex than "price of gas at the pump" (which will likely go up if oil industry is taxed higher), but I doubt you would listen.

And speaking of talking points, your whole "oil industry is taxed the same as everybody else" line is just a huge Fox/Republican talking point I'm quite tired of hearing. It's simply not true, no matter how many times you say it, and no matter how many half-wit dems your Fox hosts manage to talk over on their shows. Every industry enjoys its own tax breaks accumulated through decades of lobbying and legislation. And the petroleum/oil industry has some of the best ones around. Your small business 35% tax is not even remotely relevant to what a vertically integrated oil company deals with.

Then you snidely remarked "Leave that to Solyndra, the folks that took the government money and ran". Thank you, Mr. Pot O'Reilly calling the kettle black. Did you know that the Solyndra failure was almost entirely a result of China subsidizing its own clean energy production, selling competing products well below cost, and creating global market conditions wherein Solyndra (which originally had a very viable business plan) could no longer be profitable? Good for consumers, bad for Solyndra (& the government loans). We could have doubled down and played the same game China was, but that would have been expensive political suicide for anybody involved, so it was easier to let them go under and buy cheap solar panels from China. Most major world governments are heavily integrated and engaged in energy production on many levels, which is part of the point I am making, so thank you for bringing it up.

And you've set up these silly straw-man arguments I never made to knock down. As if I've claimed that corporations utilizing available tax credits or even making profits are bad... When did I say anything even remotely resembling that? And really, a whole paragraph about Apple's profits and shareholder dividend plans? Relevant? You're arguing with yourself, but boy you look good doing it!

In summary, you seem fairly well read and intelligent, but you're picking a fight I'm not particularly interested in having, especially in the manner you seem to want to wage it.

My point is simple: 1. Governments are & probably always will be involved in energy, as there is truly no more important resource. 2. Currently the US government effectively sends many billions of dollars to oil companies (via tax credits, subsidies, whatever, it's just semantics & really not relevant to the issue). 3. The US government could re-instate tax credits for consumers of clean energy vehicles (hybrids) to encourage consumption, production, and technological evolution in those areas, all of which are net positive for the world. 4. Some of the funding for that could come from the increased tax payments from the oil industry by repealing some of the credits they've long enjoyed.

Let's agree to disagree on politics. :) Hopefully we can both agree that our CTs are great cars.
 

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@Dozer42... You seem very passionate. But do you know what we're even talking about?
No, what we're talking about is your blatant lie: "The oil industry gets billions (trillions?) in tax credits and subsidies already." Trying to change the subject back to the original discussion won't cover up your untruths.

That doesn't make either of us wrong, shallow, or ignorant.
Yes, you're wrong and you know it. If you don't know it, then yes, your use of the word ignorant would apply.

And speaking of talking points, your whole "oil industry is taxed the same as everybody else" line is just a huge Fox/Republican talking point I'm quite tired of hearing. It's simply not true, no matter how many times you say it.
It is true, you just choose to stick your fingers in your ears running around 'it's not true! it's not true'. If it's not, how about you provide some proof? Some shred of evidence?? That's right, you can't.

Your small business 35% tax is not even remotely relevant to what a vertically integrated oil company deals with.
Of course it is, C Corps are taxed at that rate. It's a fact, you can't get around it. They don't make up fantasy tax rates for every type of business.

Did you know that the Solyndra failure was almost entirely a result of China subsidizing its own clean energy production, selling competing products well below cost, and creating global market conditions wherein Solyndra (which originally had a very viable business plan) could no longer be profitable?
No, the reason they went bankrupt is because they're idiots. You can't compete in manufacturing with China when they use slave labor. Bush made sure the Solyndra loan did NOT go through (check on it), then Obama pushed it through to give free money to his campaign contributors (check into it, please don't take my word for it).

And you've set up these silly straw-man arguments I never made to knock down. As if I've claimed that corporations utilizing available tax credits or even making profits are bad.
You keep repeating lies about the evil Oil Industry and these fantasy subsidies they get. I just wonder why you hate the oil industry so much that you feel the need to attack them with lies? You should be thanking them for providing the product you need to run your car at a very low profit margin.

In summary, you seem fairly well read and intelligent, but you're picking a fight I'm not particularly interested in having, especially in the manner you seem to want to wage it.
Uh, you picked this fight when you called me 'misinformed'. Of course you're not 'particularly interested', because you know you're wrong and can't back up your statements. Obviously it's you who hasn't done the research and can't figure out that the oil industry doesn't get billions or trillions in subsidies. You have a blind hatred for these companies based on lies, it just doesn't make sense.

My point is simple: 3. The US government could re-instate tax credits for consumers of clean energy vehicles (hybrids) to encourage consumption, production, and technological evolution in those areas, all of which are net positive for the world.
Oh, now I get it! You didn't get a handout for buying a hybrid this time and you're pissed off and looking to blame someone (the oil companies).

Sad, so very sad. I don't expect any handouts from the government or some sort of pat on the back because I bought a car that gets 50mpg.
 

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More lies about this so called "gravity"

I feel like I'm suggesting my local park puts padded mats under the play equipment for safety, and they keep coming back challenging the idea of gravity and accusing me of lying to prove my point. Really Dozer42... you're really going to pursue this line of argument? That the oil industry doesn't receive special subsidies and tax breaks and that I'm just making it all up?

I already provided a link to a NY Times article and a Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report explaining special tax treatment for oil companies, but those must be lying or biased too, so here's some more reading from a variety of sources discussing favorable tax treatment & subsidies for U.S. oil industry. As you can see, the estimates and amounts vary wildly depending on what slice of the pie is being looked at, but can we at least acknowledge the current situation for what it is?


The U.S. Tax Subsidies for Oil Companies
Beckner-Posner said:
The principal tax subsidies for the oil industry are as follows: a “domestic manufacturing deduction” that allows oil and gas companies to deduct an extra 6 percent of their taxable income; a deduction for “intangible costs,” which are costs for investments in oil exploration or production that have no salvage value, such as clearing land to enable an oil well to be drilled—the oil companies are not required to amortize these costs over the entire expected life of the oil well—and last the companies are permitted to deduct royalties they pay to foreign government, on the ground that royalties paid to a government are really a tax.

The aggregate values of these subsidies to the U.S. oil industry is approximately $5 billion a year, almost as much as the industry pays in federal income tax ($5.7 billion). The industry's total profits exceed $30 billion, so it would not be facing a crushing burden if the subsidies were to be eliminated; the Obama Administration proposes to eliminate only $2 billion of the subsidies.

U.S. Fossil-Fuel Subsidies Twice That of Renewables (Update2) - Bloomberg
Bloomberg said:
Sept. 18, 2009 (Bloomberg) -- Fossil fuels including oil, natural gas and coal received more than twice the level of subsidies that renewable energy sources got from the U.S. government in fiscal 2002 through 2008, the Environmental Law Institute said.

Government spending and tax breaks amounted to $72.5 billion for fossil fuels and $29 billion for renewable energy, according to a report by the institute today.

The Tax Foundation - IEA Study Ranks Nations
Tax Foundation said:
On the production side, the federal government does provide some subsidies to fossil fuels. Those would include direct outlays such as the government's geological research, and on the tax side it would include any tax treatment of fossil fuel profits that is more generous that the ordinary treatment of corporate profits. As previous Tax Foundation research has shown, such tax breaks total approximately $2.8 billion per year.

Es_rel
(I know, this is Greenpeace, so they're clearly lying too, right? Note the inclusion of defense in this study. Do you also believe we went to war to spread our special freedom sauce around the world? But still let's not include defense spending in this discussion, as it's not a direct credit or subsidy.)
Greenpeace said:
The U.S. government provided net subsidies of between $5.2 and $11.9 billion to the oil sector during 1995, excluding the cost of defending Persian Gulf oil supplies. We estimate defense of oil supplies to be worth an additional $10.5 to $23.3 billion, demonstrating the magnitude of this specific subsidy element. Thus, our estimate for net federal subsidies to oil, including defense, is $15.7 to $35.2 billion for 1995. Because of the sensitivity of our totals to the defense subsidy, we present our results both with and without this item.

Debating the need for petroleum subsidies | Marketplace from American Public Media
Marketplace said:
Today, federal fossil fuel subsidies in all run about $10 billion a year, more than double those for renewable energy.

Petroleum industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wikipedia said:
Governments such as the United States government provide a heavy public subsidy to petroleum companies, with major tax breaks at virtually every stage of oil exploration and extraction, including for the costs of oil field leases and drilling equipment.

Get the Energy Sector off the Dole - Jeffrey Leonard
Washington Monthly said:
Energy subsidies are the sordid legacy of more than sixty years of politics as usual in Washington, and they cost us somewhere around $20 billion a year. To put that sum in perspective, that’s more than the State Department’s entire budget. It’s also enough to send half a million Americans to college each year with all expenses paid. Energy subsidies undermine the working of the free market, and they make rational approaches to long-term energy challenges and climate change impossible. They are not an aid to energy independence or environmental stewardship. They are an impediment.

Energy subsidies take many forms. Some of them are direct outlays of taxpayer dollars, like payments to corn producers for ethanol. Most are in the form of tax benefits, such as the deduction for “intangible drilling costs” (labor, repairs, hauling, you name it) in oil exploration—a notoriously abused provision of the tax code. The sheer number of subsidies is part of what makes them so hard to track.

Oil Subsidies 101! « BarryOnEnergy
(This one explains the original CBO report I linked to, which you either ignored or didn't understand)
BarryOnEnergy said:
As a starting point, a review of the corporate income tax system gives a good indication of the relative level of taxation currently applies to capital income of the oil industry. The Congressional Budget Office Paper “Taxing Capital Income: Effective Rates and Approached to Reform” dated October 2005 shows:

• Petroleum and Natural-Gas Structures are subjected to a 9.2 % effective tax rate on capital income, the lowest of 49 categories. Computers and peripheral equipment have the highest tax rate at 36.9%

• Oil-field machinery is subjected to a 21.9% effective tax rate on capital income, ranking No 21 of the 49 categories.

These low tax rates may or may not be considered a direct subsidy. But in context to other assets types, such as educational building, which are taxed at 28.4%, the justification behind these favorable rates granted to the oil industry seems unbalanced.

Turn Off the Oil Subsidy Spigot
American Progress said:
This is a golden opportunity to eliminate subsidies to oil companies, which are some of the most egregious tax expenditures (shadow spending programs run through the tax system) that in total amount to over $1 trillion in spending this year alone. Lobbyists and oil companies will undoubtedly continue fighting for the status quo with false arguments.

[HR][/HR]
Sir Isaac Newton & I, still sticking with all our bogus liberal talking points. :p
And by the way to respond to some of your other points:

No, the reason [Solyndra] went bankrupt is because they're idiots. You can't compete in manufacturing with China when they use slave labor.
A cutting edge solar energy research and manufacturing company is forced out of business by the Chinese government subsidizing competitive products and selling below cost, and your analysis is "they're idiots" for having tried to launch a domestic industry in the first place. Great summary of a complex situation. While we're at it, let's preemptively close ALL of our domestic factories and stop even trying to make anything locally.


Oh, now I get it! You didn't get a handout for buying a hybrid this time and you're pissed off and looking to blame someone (the oil companies).

Sad, so very sad. I don't expect any handouts from the government or some sort of pat on the back because I bought a car that gets 50mpg.
No, you don't get it at all actually. I'm neither pissed nor blaming or expecting anything from anybody. If you could stop acting out the Rush Limbaugh / Bill O'Reilly / Fox news playbook and framing every issue as aggrieved liberals looking for handouts and instead read what I've written & linked to, you might understand (and maybe even learn something).

What I'm saying is that the US government funnels a tremendous amount of money to the oil industry that was important for establishing the (capital intensive) industry from its humble beginnings in the 19th century, but that this is no longer necessary at anywhere near the current scale. And if we as a nation (and world) are to inhabit a future without toxic oceans, polluted city air, and endless crippling wars, then we need to look to alternative energy. And giving credits to consumers who purchase alternative energy vehicles is a good way to encourage demand and growth in this direction.

I'm sorry if you still can't understand that. Feel free to call me an ignorant liar a few more times though. I'd rather be correct & slandered than just plain wrong & too stubborn to acknowledge it.
 
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