Bad head gasket or bad head due to violent shudder

100029 Views 119 Replies 50 Participants Last post by Sheed, 11 mo ago

douglasvarney

Discussion Starter · May 16, 2017

Car is a 2013 CT200, one month ago had the EGR and manifold replaced due to shudder and shaking on start up. $1,100 and one month later the shudder is back.....VIOLENT shudder. Tech found codes for misfires. Diagnosis is either a bad head gasket or bad head that is allowing coolant into firing chamber.....when plugs fire it is put out by coolant in head, causing misfire and the VIOLENT shudder. Anyone ever hear of this? Seems to me if the shudder was there a month ago, that may have caused the head gasket to break or the head to crack. Estimate to repair is $4,500. WHASSUP?

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pnwliz

· #101 · Jun 7, 2021

Tom Clement said:
I also have a 2013 CT200h, and like another poster on this site, it had about 130,000 when the engine light went on and it started violently shuttering on start in the morning. I had it evaluated at an independent shop and they found the code to be a misfire in cylinder 1. When they pressurized that cylinder, the coolant bubbled up, indicating a head gasket leak (the air escaped through the head gasket into the coolant system.) The shuttering in the morning was because the coolant leaked into the cylinder and the first few ignitions failed because of that.

I got quotes from that shop ($4100) and from the Lexus dealership ($7000) for replacing the head gasket. Then I found a regional shop (greater SF Bay Area) that specializes in Prius head gasket replacement (found them on Craigslist). They've done 1500 of them and have posted 30 or so videos on YouTube showing exactly how they do them. I called, they quoted me $1350, they came to my house 3 days later with their van stocked with replacement parts. It took two of them 3.5 hours to do it on the spot, and it's been running beautifully every since (a week now.) One of the costs (and delays) of the gasket replacement is machining of the head if it needs it. They keep a machined one in the van (along with other replacement parts like radiators) and just trade it out if needed (charging a relatively small fee for doing it - I think they said $175 or something, but mine didn't need it). They didn't try to upsell me at all. When a small issue occurred (some carbon blocked a pollution control sensor), they came by the next morning and fixed it without additional charge with no questions asked.

They told me these engines 2ZR FXE tend to need new head gaskets at about 130,000 miles. One of their videos explains why. Apparently, most of the stress on a head gasket comes when the engine heats up. The aluminum block and head expand, while the steel bolts that hold them together do not, so the head gasket is compressed. The more on/off cycles of the engine, the more stress this causes. Since hybrid engines are designed to turn off during drives and stops, they tend to fail more often than a conventional non-hybrid engine.

Could you share the information for the shop you used? Im in San Jose and had the exact same thing happen this weekend to my 2011 CT!

thank [email protected]
Liz

Haha_jizzjizz

· #102 · Jun 8, 2021

pnwliz said:
Could you share the information for the shop you used? Im in San Jose and had the exact same thing happen this weekend to my 2011 CT!

thank [email protected]
Liz

Go to YouTube and search "gasket masters"

Reactions: 2

Tom Clement

· #103 · Jun 8, 2021

pnwliz said:
Could you share the information for the shop you used? Im in San Jose and had the exact same thing happen this weekend to my 2011 CT!

thank [email protected]
Liz

They are here: https://www.gasketmasters.com/

I got to them by searching www.Craigslist.com.

Reactions: 1

Tom Clement

· #104 · Jun 8, 2021

Tom Clement said:
They are here: https://www.gasketmasters.com/

I got to them by searching www.Craigslist.com.

Actually, Craigslist.org

Reactions: 1

Bandito

· #105 · Jun 23, 2021

stormchaser said:
Don't believe that at all.
Very common occurrence on CT,Prius and Auris (UK).
None have been due to head gasket failure. This engine doesn't suffer from head gasket problems and I've never read of any either.
Questions:
Does the engine suffer from coolant loss?
Are you having to keep topping it up?
Is there any oil in the water and water in the oil?
Which cylinders are misfiring ?
Mine had this problem last winter. I cleaned out the EGR valve and pipe and used a fuel injector cleaner. The car hasn't suffered with it since. It was also a really scary bad shuddering too.
Sorry for the questions but I would investigate it more as you don't want to be paying for things that aren't required.
Good luck.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Did you do the work yourself, or have it done? I'm shitting myself right now with this loud shuttering. Two mechanics on the phone have told me it's the head gasket from what I describe. I'm not very mechanical, so would probably have it done, if in fact it's what you say. I haven't had the car looked at yet. Not sure how I would request this service. Just ask them to clean the EGR valve and pipe? Did you put fuel injector into your gas tank? Which brand? Thanks so much...

Haha_jizzjizz

· #106 · Jun 23, 2021

A bad head gasket may or may not be the cause of the banging and clunking, but it will be the end result if you let it go on. This guy may have been at the very beginning of it and in his particular situation the gasket was not damaged YET. I am curious though how a exhaust cooling system would cause the car to misfire. If the pipes are clogged, it would just let all the exhaust exit without cooling. Also, such a clogged system would throw a code due to certain conditions being detected by the 02 sensors. Absent this code, I would not waste time cleaning the coolers and pipes.

Reactions: 2

lolaforbes

· #107 · Nov 11, 2021

pflipper said:
Hi all,

Add my name to the list here... violent shudder when accelerating, engine warning light, into the dealer to assess the light, code P0300, P0301, etc. which indicates cylinder misfire, diagnosis as issue with intake manifold and crack in head gasket, beaucoup bucks to repair, yadda, yadda...

How many people on this board reported the issue? At least 25+ by my count. That is just Lexus CT owners who found this board to see why and how this would happen to such a high-end brand car and maybe to complain, probably countless others who just paid for the repair and just moved on without digging into it. Then there are also probably a multitude of others who have an actual Prius with this same engine with the same issue, and I have good sources who have looked at Prius boards that confirm this.

I purchased a CT200 late last summer, and over the course of the last week found out that this problem was really a problem with how Toyota/Lexus is addressing the issue. They knew long before any one of you hit 100K miles that this failure was inevitable, yet they did nothing for the customer to avoid the major issues - a blown head gasket, or at worse: hydrolock, a bent cylinder or a cylinder through the block, complete engine destruction. Sure, they put out a TSB on the intake manifold, but never did anything proactive to help the customer avoid the major issue down the road. Look at the TSB --> L-SB-0019-16. They put this out in January of 2013. They knew that after a cold soak (apparently that is engineer-speak for turned off car and let sit idle for a time) that the engine might "run rough" at first, "rattle", maybe have a diagnostic code that indicated a cylinder misfire. Guess what - by that time it is too late! You already have coolant leaking into the cylinder at that point and you already have a cracked head gasket.

Maybe a seasoned mechanic can tell me I'm wrong here, but the way I see it, the intake manifold is the contributor to the head gasket failure. The EGR system in this engine sends exhaust to individual runners (or EGR port, whatever you want to call it) in the intake manifold, then onto each cylinder as part of the exhaust gas recirculation process. With the temperature control at the EGR valve and nothing to monitor the temperature at each individual runner, any carbon deposit build up that clogs an individual runner and increases the running temperature at that individual cylinder will cause that cylinder to run hotter than the other cylinders that have less clogging. This uneven temperature between the cylinders causes a differential expansion on the cylinder head and eventually causes the head gasket failure at that cylinder.

So, yes. The offer is out there to mechanics on this board. Tell me where I am wrong in this assessment of intake manifold - individual runners - carbon clogging EGR circuit - differential expansion on cylinder head - head gasket failure. I'll admit that I am no mechanic, so clarify any points I make that are wrong (as well as confirm any parts that are right).

Back to the real issue - what did Toyota/Lexus do about this, aside from putting out a few TSBs (also see L-SB-0019-16)? Nothing, that I can see. Lexus/Toyota has not been proactive with its customers to offer a solution to this problem that avoids major expense to the customer. There are a number of ways Toyota/Lexus could have saved it’s customers from undue expense. First, Lexus/Toyota should have made updates to the service schedule on this vehicle to inspect the car for clogging in the intake manifold. To my knowledge, they have never updated their service schedule to include this. Toyota/Lexus could have also offered a cleaning of the intake manifold at regular service intervals to avoid the clogging and cylinder failure that leads to the head gasket failure. Additionally, Toyota/Lexus could have required a complete replacement of the intake manifold by a certain mileage so the customer could avoid a head gasket failure. Any one of these proactive decisions could help your customers avoid the issues that lead to higher repair expenses on the car.

No, Toyota/Lexus knows. Toyota/Lexus knows there is a problem with clogging in the intake manifold and that this clogging problem contributed directly to the head gasket failure. But they chose to do the least they could do, and the owners of these cars are now getting stuck with the results of this negligence.

Question is, are we all just going to plunk down our hard earned money to fix a problem that could have been avoided if Toyota/Lexus did the right thing?

Same 💯 exactly 💯 issue. 2012 ct200h -just over 100k miles.
My car has Been at lexus for 3 days. Paying the $199 for diagnostic visit with every intention to take the info they give me and find a mechanic. I didn't know it's be this much! Any advice?

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Haha_jizzjizz

· #108 · Nov 11, 2021

lolaforbes said:
Same 💯 exactly 💯 issue. 2012 ct200h -just over 100k miles.
My car has Been at lexus for 3 days. Paying the $199 for diagnostic visit with every intention to take the info they give me and find a mechanic. I didn't know it's be this much! Any advice?

Did you try gasket masters? They may have the service in your area. They charge like 1800

Maz

· #109 · Dec 23, 2021

stormchaser said:
I work for Lexus in the UK and we haven't yet had any CT failures of any kind.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When driving In normal mode at what mph does the engine kick in I've been told 30 or 40 but I don't know which one

Pachwerk27

· #110 · Feb 6, 2022 (Edited)

HELLO
I'M LOOKING AT BUYING A LEXUS CT 200h 2013 THAT I SEEN TODAY AND TEST DRIVE.
IT HAS 80,000 MILES
ANY ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE ME FROM PREVIOUS OWNERS OF THIS VEHICLE
BEFORE I MAKE THIS PURCHASE ?

ttran

· #111 · Feb 9, 2022

Pachwerk27 said:
HELLO
I'M LOOKING AT BUYING A LEXUS CT 200h 2013 THAT I SEEN TODAY AND TEST DRIVE.
IT HAS 80,000 MILES
ANY ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE ME FROM PREVIOUS OWNERS OF THIS VEHICLE
BEFORE I MAKE THIS PURCHASE ?

I recommend don’t buy the car. My 2013 w 160k miles is exhibiting the same symptoms everyone else is describing. It’s disappointing because it’s a Toyota.

Reactions: 1

MikeMendy

· #112 · Mar 3, 2022

First time I’ve posted in here.. hoping for some quick help!

I own a 2013 CT with 82,000 miles. Since about mid December (which also happened to be the last time I got the car serviced at Lexus) I’ve been periodically noticing a rough engine start, and a bit of “gurgling”. But this morning, upon start, the car had a violent start and then rumbled for about 12-15 seconds while idling. Once the vehicle shifted into gear, the rumbling stopped and the car was driving smooth. However, about a mile into my drive, going about 30 mph, the check engine light flicked on. I brought the car in to get checked out. The mechanic is telling me the most cost effective option is to buy a used motor and replace the entire motor in my vehicle.. He’s telling me it’s more cost effective to replace the entire motor (around $8500….) as opposed to opening the engine up and hoping the parts can be replaced. Coolant leaking into the heads was the basis of what he was telling me. It feels abnormal for that to happen without some other reason. I baby the car, live in moderate climate, and service it always when necessary. It seems like gasketmasters is the way to go based off this thread?

I’m not very well versed under the hood, but he’s telling me because this is an Atinkinson (?) motor, the metal cannot be machined, and once damaged there’s nothing that can be done to salvage the engine. Does this sound correct? I’m going to call around some other shops tomorrow, but I’m curious if you guys think:

-that is a correct diagnostic or if they are trying to oversell?
-if coolant leaking into heads renders the engine unusable or if replacing the head gasket solves the issue?
-what type of costs should actually be associated with a full motor swap?
-shouldn’t this have been caught in December if they serviced the cooling system? (That sounds like a lot of damage to occur in a short timespan)

Thank you so much!

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ttran

· #113 · Mar 3, 2022

MikeMendy said:
First time I’ve posted in here.. hoping for some quick help!

I own a 2013 CT with 82,000 miles. Since about mid December (which also happened to be the last time I got the car serviced at Lexus) I’ve been periodically noticing a rough engine start, and a bit of “gurgling”. But this morning, upon start, the car had a violent start and then rumbled for about 12-15 seconds while idling. Once the vehicle shifted into gear, the rumbling stopped and the car was driving smooth. However, about a mile into my drive, going about 30 mph, the check engine light flicked on. I brought the car in to get checked out. The mechanic is telling me the most cost effective option is to buy a used motor and replace the entire motor in my vehicle.. He’s telling me it’s more cost effective to replace the entire motor (around $8500….) as opposed to opening the engine up and hoping the parts can be replaced. Coolant leaking into the heads was the basis of what he was telling me. It feels abnormal for that to happen without some other reason. I baby the car, live in moderate climate, and service it always when necessary. It seems like gasketmasters is the way to go based off this thread?

I’m not very well versed under the hood, but he’s telling me because this is an Atinkinson (?) motor, the metal cannot be machined, and once damaged there’s nothing that can be done to salvage the engine. Does this sound correct? I’m going to call around some other shops tomorrow, but I’m curious if you guys think:

-that is a correct diagnostic or if they are trying to oversell?
-if coolant leaking into heads renders the engine unusable or if replacing the head gasket solves the issue?
-what type of costs should actually be associated with a full motor swap?
-shouldn’t this have been caught in December if they serviced the cooling system? (That sounds like a lot of damage to occur in a short timespan)

Thank you so much!

I understand that with a full motor swap there are a lot of unknowns because you don’t know how engine was driven, maintained, etc. how many miles does it really have? What if the hg is bad?
If you took care of your engine kept up with maintenance and everything just like I did and the head gasket is bad I would personally prefer to have the head gasket replaced sticking with the original engine.

I got to drive my CT 200 H 160,000 miles and the first time that had the check engine light came on it was throwing code for cylinder 1 misfire as stated by many in this thread. I also changed sparks, coils, cleaned egr tube without success. I took it to the dealer to let them diagnose it do compression tests and they confirmed it needed new hg. I was quoted $7000 for the head gasket job. 7k is more than half of what the car is worth. I also got a quote for about 6000 for a full engine swap including labor from independent shop. I believe mechanics prefer a swap because it might be less labor intensive vs hg job. Not completely sure.
My car is currently in the shop with a family mechanic who is replacing the hg and I understand sent the head was sent out to be machined. The cost will be close to 3k for the hg replacement.

I was considering cutting my losses and selling it as is (Service advisor at Lexus was very interested in buying the car from me as is because he would be able to get the head gasket job done at a much lower price and probably flip it). used cars cost a lot more nowadays with soaring demand and low inventory for new and used cars. I did think to myself if I was driving an electric car, I would not be dealing w a hg problem or anything related to water, gas, emissions. Oh well the electric car will have to wait for now. Though it would be a great time to take that leap.

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TobiasSing

· #114 · Mar 4, 2022

MikeMendy said:
First time I’ve posted in here.. hoping for some quick help!

I own a 2013 CT with 82,000 miles. Since about mid December (which also happened to be the last time I got the car serviced at Lexus) I’ve been periodically noticing a rough engine start, and a bit of “gurgling”. But this morning, upon start, the car had a violent start and then rumbled for about 12-15 seconds while idling. Once the vehicle shifted into gear, the rumbling stopped and the car was driving smooth. However, about a mile into my drive, going about 30 mph, the check engine light flicked on. I brought the car in to get checked out. The mechanic is telling me the most cost effective option is to buy a used motor and replace the entire motor in my vehicle.. He’s telling me it’s more cost effective to replace the entire motor (around $8500….) as opposed to opening the engine up and hoping the parts can be replaced. Coolant leaking into the heads was the basis of what he was telling me. It feels abnormal for that to happen without some other reason. I baby the car, live in moderate climate, and service it always when necessary. It seems like gasketmasters is the way to go based off this thread?

I’m not very well versed under the hood, but he’s telling me because this is an Atinkinson (?) motor, the metal cannot be machined, and once damaged there’s nothing that can be done to salvage the engine. Does this sound correct? I’m going to call around some other shops tomorrow, but I’m curious if you guys think:

-that is a correct diagnostic or if they are trying to oversell?
-if coolant leaking into heads renders the engine unusable or if replacing the head gasket solves the issue?
-what type of costs should actually be associated with a full motor swap?
-shouldn’t this have been caught in December if they serviced the cooling system? (That sounds like a lot of damage to occur in a short timespan)

Thank you so much!

As I said on Club Lexus, it sounds like the head gasket has failed. Your IP says you're in California. I recommend "Gasket Masters" to come out to you and service your car for way cheaper than that. https://www.gasketmasters.com/

Reactions: 1

internalaudit

· #115 · Apr 13, 2022

I know this issue with blown head gaskets is real but I tried looking threads up and this one seems the most sticky/active.

At least in this engine and technical discussion forum, it seems there have not been a lot of discussion of the issue prior to 2020 and most of the complaints are coming from new CT200hforum users, which almost sounds like they bought their CT200h's used (and may already have the issue but somehow got the bandaid approach with the issue not being disclosed).

I did too ('12 CT with almost 130k miles then) in early 2020 but from a friend who confirmed there were no judder/shudder and rough vibration during cold starts and acceleration.

Will definitely be monitoring the coolant level, inspecting the consistency of the oil on the dipstick and the oil level going forward.

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resiliencen

· #116 · Apr 14, 2022

internalaudit said:
I know this issue with blown head gaskets is real but I tried looking threads up and this one seems the most sticky/active.

At least in this engine and technical discussion forum, it seems there have not been a lot of discussion of the issue prior to 2020 and most of the complaints are coming from new CT200hforum users, which almost sounds like they bought their CT200h's used (and may already have the issue but somehow got the bandaid approach with the issue not being disclosed).

I did too ('12 CT with almost 130k miles then) in early 2020 but from a friend who confirmed there were no judder/shudder and rough vibration during cold starts and acceleration.

Will definitely be monitoring the coolant level, inspecting the consistency of the oil on the dipstick and the oil level going forward.

I have been following this thread for two ish years now since my engine light came on (12' CT). I bought it used in 2015, with 60k, It began running rough in 2020, but we thought it was the EGR only. Then it threw the 02 Bank 1 sensor code. Mechanic said it also needed new coil packs. Replaces them all, and the EGR. Did not solve it. Second opinion attributed the shaking/shudder it to a transmission bearing that was wearing out. (Shuddering had been occurring during acceleration only). They added a strap but it did not solve the shuddering. January of this year the issues seemed to get worse. Fast forward to this summer, the car started suffering from disappearing coolant. (150k on it now). Finally brought it to Lexus for diagnostics - coolant in the head and a blown head gasket. Intermittent failure of the water pump. Quoted us almost 8k for a new headgasket and "further" diagnostics.

drive.google.com

video.mp4

drive.google.com

drive.google.com

The techs video above

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internalaudit

· #117 · Apr 14, 2022

^ Sorry to hear your experience. Between the EGR valve that remains open and the head gasket issues, I think it's the latter that's going to be the bigger issue to watch out for. I'm no expert and have also been mostly reading this site and a couple of others.

Even Ahmed on Car Car Nut YoutTube channel posted a video on EGR valve and some of his comments were if there were no issues with they misfire(?) because extra air gets drawn into the cylinder (?), don't bother cleaning it.

I'm also a little bit concerned about the reported issues but we've had the '12 CT200h for a little over two years now and cannot return it to my friend, who has departed the country for the medium-term. So far so good. Just wondering if in the case my car will require a head gasket replacement, if it even makes sense to just to just get a Gen4 engine and have it installed. Not sure how much that will cost here in Canada but the engine is around $2-4K CAD at the wreckers.

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Zet38

· #118 · May 19, 2022

MichaelG65 said:
Hmm

hi i am getting my 2014ct200h engine&hg replaced couldn't catch the issue fast enough..dealership says $8.5k hoping itll last me another 100k miles- im thinking of future preventative measures so spark plugs every 60k miles, use 89-91 gas (in US), then if my car has sport mode should i just drive in that? would that limit the heat problems with the head gasket since the engine wouldn't turn off as much in sport mode?, then would it be worthwhile to change transmission fluid or anything else? im at 120k miles. thank you or anyone who has insight

internalaudit

· #119 · May 19, 2022

Zet38 said:
hi i am getting my 2014ct200h engine&hg replaced couldn't catch the issue fast enough..dealership says $8.5k hoping itll last me another 100k miles- im thinking of future preventative measures so spark plugs every 60k miles, use 89-91 gas (in US), then if my car has sport mode should i just drive in that? would that limit the heat problems with the head gasket since the engine wouldn't turn off as much in sport mode?, then would it be worthwhile to change transmission fluid or anything else? im at 120k miles. thank you or anyone who has insight

I am no expert and my car hasn't had that issue but I've read engine replacements going for much lower. Also, if you have an independent mechanic who's good with Toyota hybrids, maybe consider replacing it with a 4th gen Prius engine but there are additional stuff to work on.

Sheed

· #120 · 11 mo ago

MikeMendy said:
First time I’ve posted in here.. hoping for some quick help!

I own a 2013 CT with 82,000 miles. Since about mid December (which also happened to be the last time I got the car serviced at Lexus) I’ve been periodically noticing a rough engine start, and a bit of “gurgling”. But this morning, upon start, the car had a violent start and then rumbled for about 12-15 seconds while idling. Once the vehicle shifted into gear, the rumbling stopped and the car was driving smooth. However, about a mile into my drive, going about 30 mph, the check engine light flicked on. I brought the car in to get checked out. The mechanic is telling me the most cost effective option is to buy a used motor and replace the entire motor in my vehicle.. He’s telling me it’s more cost effective to replace the entire motor (around $8500….) as opposed to opening the engine up and hoping the parts can be replaced. Coolant leaking into the heads was the basis of what he was telling me. It feels abnormal for that to happen without some other reason. I baby the car, live in moderate climate, and service it always when necessary. It seems like gasketmasters is the way to go based off this thread?

I’m not very well versed under the hood, but he’s telling me because this is an Atinkinson (?) motor, the metal cannot be machined, and once damaged there’s nothing that can be done to salvage the engine. Does this sound correct? I’m going to call around some other shops tomorrow, but I’m curious if you guys think:

-that is a correct diagnostic or if they are trying to oversell?
-if coolant leaking into heads renders the engine unusable or if replacing the head gasket solves the issue?
-what type of costs should actually be associated with a full motor swap?
-shouldn’t this have been caught in December if they serviced the cooling system? (That sounds like a lot of damage to occur in a short timespan)

Thank you so much!

Same issue here — I was told the same thing by a local mechanic in LA. I strongly believe that this is a manufacturing defect that should’ve been recalled by Lexus a long time ago!

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