Bad head gasket or bad head due to violent shudder

99571 Views 119 Replies 50 Participants Last post by Sheed, 10 mo ago

douglasvarney

Discussion Starter · May 16, 2017

Car is a 2013 CT200, one month ago had the EGR and manifold replaced due to shudder and shaking on start up. $1,100 and one month later the shudder is back.....VIOLENT shudder. Tech found codes for misfires. Diagnosis is either a bad head gasket or bad head that is allowing coolant into firing chamber.....when plugs fire it is put out by coolant in head, causing misfire and the VIOLENT shudder. Anyone ever hear of this? Seems to me if the shudder was there a month ago, that may have caused the head gasket to break or the head to crack. Estimate to repair is $4,500. WHASSUP?

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MichaelG65

· #61 · Oct 27, 2019 (Edited)

For those people that don't like changing spark plugs

Spark plug Auto part Automotive engine part Automotive ignition part

130,000 miles
This plug had swelling of the threads at electrode end, a horrible mess and Very difficult to remove.

Even the "recommended" plug change interval is far too high for these engines..

Looking at this, makes me see a plug change every 80,000 on the maximum side..

To assist with removal of a stubborn swelled plug, Bring to operating temperature, ride to a store and back should be enough, then remove plugs..

Expands the cylinder head..

They will be HOT, but hopefully saving your cylinder head threads..

Back n Forth (loosen tighten, loosen tighten) loosening a bit further each cycle.. Save your threads..

We may want to post this for others to see, many people don't change spark plugs.. ?

image courtesy of Fadedlights

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Mevadus

· #62 · Oct 31, 2019

MichaelG65 said:
For those people that don't like changing spark plugs View attachment 59898
130,000 miles
This plug had swelling of the threads at electrode end, a horrible mess and Very difficult to remove.

Even the "recommended" plug change interval is far too high for these engines..

Looking at this, makes me see a plug change every 80,000 on the maximum side..

To assist with removal of a stubborn swelled plug, Bring to operating temperature, ride to a store and back should be enough, then remove plugs..

Expands the cylinder head..

They will be HOT, but hopefully saving your cylinder head threads..

Back n Forth (loosen tighten, loosen tighten) loosening a bit further each cycle.. Save your threads..

We may want to post this for others to see, many people don't change spark plugs.. ?

image courtesy of Fadedlights

I had my spark plugs changed at 115k mile service. At 12X,XXX miles, I started experiencing what was diagnosed as misfires on two of the engine cylinders. The head gasket was replaced, and two weeks later my engine threw a rod. Not sure you’ve struck gold with the spark plug/coil theory, but good luck..!

Mevadus

· #63 · Oct 31, 2019

crabapple201 said:
Anyone hear of the TSB from Lexus L-SB-0174-17 I'm told it relates to the hard knocking after a "cold soak" some have written about in the thread. It seems it takes some reprogramming to fix the issue. Something to do with flash codes is the way I understand it. Just curious if anyone has had this done and if it fixed the issue?

When my vehicle first started experiencing the misfires, the dealership conducted this tsb. It did not fix my problem. I went back, and requested a compression test. The test showed two of my cylinders were experiencing misfires. I had the head gasket changed, Lexus paid for labor and I paid for parts. Two weeks later, engine threw a rod. ?

MichaelG65

· #64 · Nov 2, 2019 (Edited)

Sorry to hear of your misfortune..

We can Duplicate Exactly, the bang in question that takes the engines out.. Simply unplug a coil.. bang bang..

By the time a CEL is thrown, it's Too Late.. explosions in the head take out the gasket, undue stresses on wrist pin with all the banging takes your rod out..

I will be posting Why the dealers are playing surprised later..

You had plugs changed..
What fires the plugs?
(improper coil reinstall -clip connection -broken wire -cracked coil, improper handling at service)

Longer it bangs, the more damage that occurs.. Big time on the wrist-pin..

The TSB Crabapple posted is referencing a Problem in the CVT eTrans because of the banging, has nothing to do with fixing the banging engine.. it's a result from..

Stay tuned for a post that will be Removed by administrator / Lexus / Toyota

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MichaelG65

· #65 · Nov 3, 2019 (Edited)

Typed this up a week ago, but with Mevadus's post of almost exactly what i typed up- Had to post it..

××××××××××××××××××××
This post is unsettling, to those that experienced the financial loss..

Keep in mind, i mentioned in post #50 maybe it's Thermal.. Get back to that in a second..

?? Why is it ??
Lexus / Toyota techs unable to duplicate the engine bang, to warrant TSB Solutions and ALERT the customers of a Service Change Order
(i did it in less than 10 posts)
They don't want to, way to much service profit ?

They play it down with "Hugh Really never heard of that", no engine codes so have to wait.. and they wait.. they wait for the $$

Let it bang away until a CEL is thrown, by then it's usually Too Late.. Undue stresses on the wrist-pin, and the head gasket is usually gone by that time leaking..

But they'll go ahead and get the "maybe it's this" manifold Profit $$, to show good faith they cover upto 1/2 the costs, knowing more cash is on the way now.. They'll get that back real quick anyway..

Banging takes out the cylinder head gasket, firing in the head heats the head to fast and uneven out of design spec. Metallurgy (here's that thermal)

Then they get head gasket repair Profit $$

They still know there's more Profit coming down the road, with all the banging stressing out the wrist-pin to connecting rod, (just a matter of time) so a bit more waiting..

Then the engine throws a rod, taking out the block

Do i really need to say more?
××××××××××××××××××××

Everyone- posts #57 & #58
save, copy, print, remember..

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MichaelG65

· #66 · Nov 7, 2019

My oem plugs came in yesterday
View attachment 59909

Decided to take a Look at the gaps
Holy crap - .034 .038 .040 .037
that's NOT "pre-gapped" and out of specification for my 2014 ct200h..

Only one (1) plug was within spec "?"
That's a Problem

And two iridium tips were cut at an angle instead of flat topped.. Considering using a needle file here, it's that bad..

Okay let's, Do the math
1mm to 1.1mm gap Required

1mm = .0393 min
1.1mm = .0433 max

.0413 = Dead Center

Gapped all to .041
(pay attention to your plugs)

Material property Font Label

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Mevadus

· #67 · Nov 17, 2019 (Edited)

Just providing a chronological order of events leading up to the thrown rod...

Btw, I apologize, it was not the 115k mile service I had done when the spark plugs were replaced, that was on a different vehicle.

11Oct2018 (125,464 miles): Oil and Filter change. Spark plugs replaced. Customer states “vehicle is shuddering when starting, giving it gas doesn’t help.” Mechanic states “normal sound of MG1 and MG2 motors turning on. Condition does not last longer as vehicle gets older per Lexus.”

06Nov2018 (127,531 miles): Customer states “CEL on and VSC Trac Light on, please check and advise. CEL has been on and off since last visit 11OCT2018.” Mechanic states “engine light wasn’t on at time of check. Stored codes for misfires in the computer. Performed bulletin L-SB-0174-17 for random engine misfire. Performed computer update. Never duplicated shudder on startup. Computer update will solve the misfire issue and possibly shudder on startup.”

26Nov2018 (127,877 miles): Customer states “on startup engine is knocking/running rough. Coolant reserve tank empty. CEL went on and came off. Please check and advise.” Mechanic states “cracked head gasket is cause. Replaced engine cylinder head gasket.”

20Dec2018 (129,526 miles): Customer towed vehicle in. Vehicle won’t start and may have cam shaft issue. Mechanic states “timing chain broken due to #1 and #3 piston failure. Recommend engine tear down to assess further damage.”

So as you can see, I had engine misfires prior to having the spark plugs changed. I would say I took the car in within a week of first experiencing the misfires. Prior to the misfires I had put 17k miles on the car, including driving it cross country, with no issues.

Tonight I had the tires replaced on my wife vehicle, and was mentioning the misfortune of this vehicle after the manager told me about a Prius that had come in yesterday with a piston rod protruding out the side of the block. That’s what made me think about checking this forum again. I felt terrible for the girl who had her dads car towed in, and I know exactly what they must be going through right now. Very disappointing....

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MichaelG65

· #68 · Nov 19, 2019

Recommended plug change and possible coil testing, should be announced as a

Service Alert Change Order

at every Lexus / Toyota service center, and customers notified

Myself every 80,000 maximum

changed mine at 71,000, already heavily Burnt ceramics "?"

Burnt ceramics breaks down the insulating barrier, it's porous as it is under the polish, now add normal motor vibrations, this causes pitting in the polish for stray voltages to escape, well that's the main insulator for the plug core itself.. Hello ?

71,000 miles and my plugs were done -Burnt- Mild grandpa driving..

Glad i decided to take a Look around this forum, ponder, start researching, and solve for X, i would never had known -until it was too late..

EGR can pipe and valve, that's all good -for Every Car on the road.. who cares, a cel will pop alerting you to EGR restrictions, save cash clean it then.. it's Not the cause of the Bang Bang

Need Club Lexus and Prius forums to be notified of my posts here, at Least #57 and #58

Coils should also be tested for proper resistances as well, just to be on the safe side.. they Do fail..

Fadedlights has had no issues since replacing plugs, back on the road 500 miles and counting PM'd me today, Nice and smooth again ? glad he saved his threads

Thanks for the details Mevadus
it was already Too Late when plugs were changed.. which is why my research is so important.. Most will notice and continue on till they Find Time to drive it to the dealership.. sad.. the head and gasket were already going out -thermal- and letting it drive off uugh.. matter of time, wrist-pin..

for those that don't know what a wrist-pin is, piston to connecting rod is held together at the wrist-pin by little circlips, banging takes this out and, well you get the idea..

An event Exactly as i described, will happen..

Can not let these "sensitive" engines bang

Thanks everyone, for replying reading yakking, and tell Everyone who has a hybrid Toyota or Lexus (even Ford has an Atkinson) we have an expensive problem, that Can be Fixed simply..

Change those plugs
Ensure gaps at .041

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Teddy200h

· #68 · Mar 5, 2020

stormchaser said:
Don't believe that at all.
Very common occurrence on CT,Prius and Auris (UK).
None have been due to head gasket failure. This engine doesn't suffer from head gasket problems and I've never read of any either.
Questions:
Does the engine suffer from coolant loss?
Are you having to keep topping it up?
Is there any oil in the water and water in the oil?
Which cylinders are misfiring ?
Mine had this problem last winter. I cleaned out the EGR valve and pipe and used a fuel injector cleaner. The car hasn't suffered with it since. It was also a really scary bad shuddering too.
Sorry for the questions but I would investigate it more as you don't want to be paying for things that aren't required.
Good luck.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

stormchaser said:
Don't believe that at all.
Very common occurrence on CT,Prius and Auris (UK).
None have been due to head gasket failure. This engine doesn't suffer from head gasket problems and I've never read of any either.
Questions:
Does the engine suffer from coolant loss?
Are you having to keep topping it up?
Is there any oil in the water and water in the oil?
Which cylinders are misfiring ?
Mine had this problem last winter. I cleaned out the EGR valve and pipe and used a fuel injector cleaner. The car hasn't suffered with it since. It was also a really scary bad shuddering too.
Sorry for the questions but I would investigate it more as you don't want to be paying for things that aren't required.
Good luck.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Has the shaking came back in your ct? Are you still losing coolant? Or was it the head gasket?

stormchaser

· #68 · Mar 5, 2020

I have had nothing since.
Mine doesn’t have a HG problem and it’s never lost any coolant.
It’s on 103K now and is running great. Gave it a full service (incl plugs) at 101K. Checked EGR system and it’s totally clean. Once a month I put injector cleaner in on a full tank.

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MichaelG65

· #69 · Mar 6, 2020

To ALL people who have Atkinson Hybrids..

Change Plugs at 60,000 mile intervals
No-Matter-What =No Excuses=

Ensure plug gaps are .041

Stop ?
stop wasting cash
stop giving dealers cash to fix your blown engines

stormchaser

· #70 · Mar 6, 2020

Plugs are at 100K

Doing before is pointless.

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Tom Clement

· #71 · Mar 6, 2020 (Edited)

douglasvarney said:
Car is a 2013 CT200, one month ago had the EGR and manifold replaced due to shudder and shaking on start up. $1,100 and one month later the shudder is back.....VIOLENT shudder. Tech found codes for misfires. Diagnosis is either a bad head gasket or bad head that is allowing coolant into firing chamber.....when plugs fire it is put out by coolant in head, causing misfire and the VIOLENT shudder. Anyone ever hear of this? Seems to me if the shudder was there a month ago, that may have caused the head gasket to break or the head to crack. Estimate to repair is $4,500. WHASSUP?

I also have a 2013 CT200h, and like another poster on this site, it had about 130,000 when the engine light went on and it started violently shuttering on start in the morning. I had it evaluated at an independent shop and they found the code to be a misfire in cylinder 1. When they pressurized that cylinder, the coolant bubbled up, indicating a head gasket leak (the air escaped through the head gasket into the coolant system.) The shuttering in the morning was because the coolant leaked into the cylinder and the first few ignitions failed because of that.

I got quotes from that shop ($4100) and from the Lexus dealership ($7000) for replacing the head gasket. Then I found a regional shop (greater SF Bay Area) that specializes in Prius head gasket replacement (found them on Craigslist). They've done 1500 of them and have posted 30 or so videos on YouTube showing exactly how they do them. I called, they quoted me $1350, they came to my house 3 days later with their van stocked with replacement parts. It took two of them 3.5 hours to do it on the spot, and it's been running beautifully every since (a week now.) One of the costs (and delays) of the gasket replacement is machining of the head if it needs it. They keep a machined one in the van (along with other replacement parts like radiators) and just trade it out if needed (charging a relatively small fee for doing it - I think they said $175 or something, but mine didn't need it). They didn't try to upsell me at all. When a small issue occurred (some carbon blocked a pollution control sensor), they came by the next morning and fixed it without additional charge with no questions asked.

They told me these engines 2ZR FXE tend to need new head gaskets at about 130,000 miles. One of their videos explains why. Apparently, most of the stress on a head gasket comes when the engine heats up. The aluminum block and head expand, while the steel bolts that hold them together do not, so the head gasket is compressed. The more on/off cycles of the engine, the more stress this causes. Since hybrid engines are designed to turn off during drives and stops, they tend to fail more often than a conventional non-hybrid engine.

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MichaelG65

· #72 · Mar 7, 2020

stormchaser said:
Plugs are at 100K
Doing before is pointless.

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tell that to the people who Don’t put fuel injector cleaner in monthly, and sediment fouls out a plug..

-tell that to Mevadus
-tell that to Fadedlights
-tell that to all the people throwing a rod out the side of the block

even i experienced this, at 61,000 miles..

Goto post #57 or before..
read From there..

if you understand the processes of an Atkinson Cycle engine, you’ll understand why the head gasket goes out and That leads to additional failures

your fortunate to have had strong plugs that lasted so long, but your due diligence on ensuring fuel system is clean only assisted with keeping those plugs alive ?

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stormchaser

· #73 · Mar 7, 2020

I actually work as a mechanic for Lexus as I have done for the past 10 years.
You no need to go on at me about things thanks that’s maybe out of your profession.

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billy19usa

· #74 · Mar 9, 2020

stormchaser said:
Don't believe that at all.
Very common occurrence on CT,Prius and Auris (UK).
None have been due to head gasket failure. This engine doesn't suffer from head gasket problems and I've never read of any either.
Questions:
Does the engine suffer from coolant loss?
Are you having to keep topping it up?
Is there any oil in the water and water in the oil?
Which cylinders are misfiring ?
Mine had this problem last winter. I cleaned out the EGR valve and pipe and used a fuel injector cleaner. The car hasn't suffered with it since. It was also a really scary bad shuddering too.
Sorry for the questions but I would investigate it more as you don't want to be paying for things that aren't required.
Good luck.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have 177k miles on my CT and it recently started doing this almost on every start. I found out that if I put in Neutral it eliminated the vibration and shaking. I also replaced the spark plugs and it hasn’t done it since. I am planning to clean out my EGR cooler and intake manifold. Apparently this is normal based on all the Prius and CT200 threads I’ve read.

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MichaelG65

· #75 · Mar 9, 2020 (Edited)

stormchaser said:
I actually work as a mechanic for Lexus as I have done for the past 10 years.
You no need to go on at me about things thanks that’s maybe out of your profession.

By telling people not to worry about it, seems a little out of norm for a mechanic. Especially with such dire financial consequences as a result of ignoring..

on to Profession
I’m a little bit higher on the totem pole
as Advisory Engineer in Research and Development..

This position allows me the benefit of advising/correcting engineers, like the design group that has drawn up the car your driving..

When you retaliate with profession, it is only apparent that you have Not read my previous posts in this thread, to understand who and what you are responding to, and just maybe we all learn a thing or two on this little Atkinson Cycle engine.

For others that do not use fuel additives- EGR can pipe valve have Nothing to do with the engine bang.. Go ahead clean your EGR it is a good thing, but it’ll still bang with a bad/fouled out plug.. a CEL will pop indicating Restricted EGR anyway, save cash clean it then..

go Back to post #57 and read from there

it is an out of order Thermal condition that takes out the head gasket

Letting these sensitive Atkinson Cycle engines bang causes many additional problems that must be addressed, it also screws up the eTrans..

one 30minute drive to the dealership with engine banging, is enough to trash this little motor..

That takes care of “doing so is pointless” statement. Although you did provide a credible point of value, with what you do at a Personal Level, adding fuel injector cleaner often ?

To duplicate the bang issue we all speak of, simply unplug a coil and start the engine..

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stormchaser

· #76 · Mar 10, 2020

I’m from the UK so I suspect that this model suffers in the US.
I’ve yet to come across any HG failures here. We just don’t get them coming in for anything like this.
You needn’t get so defensive with your reply to me either. I take it that a Lexus time served mechanic is no help to anyone here

Maybe you can tell me a little about your fuel over there?
Does it have any additives and cleaning agents in it?
There seems to be too many CT,s and Prius models suffering the same fate there.

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MichaelG65

· #77 · Mar 10, 2020 (Edited)

Absolutely, our fuel is not as clean as yours. In fact i mention as to this in a previous post, and also recommended fuel injector cleaner monthly..

our gas stations over here are not all that clean in certain areas either, and I remarked to stay away from older stations.. ? water in tanks ?

See folks- water in gas can also take out your plugs with what we call Flashing, this leaves sediment remnants of the water minerals on our plugs that foul them out..

Thanks for the point-out on your location stormchaser, I wasn’t aware, we can only hope our petroleum distillates become as clean as yours ? but I don’t think that’ll happen anytime soon..

ddonalds

· #78 · Mar 10, 2020

Over here in NZ, the lowest octane rate we have is 91. That said, my car has always had either 95 or 98 in it as per the manual
Lexus over here have had no issues of this type (they say) so it might well be a fuel issue.
BTW Does anyone have an opinion on 98 octane with 10% ethanol? Lexus seem to think is OK for the car and will burn cooler...

MichaelG65

· #79 · Mar 11, 2020

Here in the US we have 87 89 93 octane, all 10% ethanol

stormchaser

· #80 · Mar 11, 2020

98 is ok

I’m beginning to think that US fuel is a major contribution to these known faults with the CT and Gen 3 Prius.
A good fuel system cleaner/injector cleaner would be highly recommended in this application of lengthening the life of your engines over there.
Our fuels in the UK have all the additives and cleaning agents already added but even myself I still use injector cleaner as a matter of course.
95 and 97 is only available here.

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